I'm getting a bit (well actually a whole lot) discouraged these days. The cost of feed here in virginia has not come down much. Sweet feed is still $10.30 /bag and corn is about 8.40 last time I checked. Market is still way off on both cattle and horses as people are starting to dump before winter.
Is anyone actually making any money out there? If so HOW? If it weren't for my town job I couldn't make the mortgage!

welcome to the club..if it weren't for the mexicans and muslims buying our sheep out of the back yard we would no longer be afloat..we are not making money just staying alive and hopeing for releif..sheep sales aren't paying the way just helping us stay alive and it is drying up here again so no pasture (which never recovered from last year) people are trying to give horses away around here with few takers..

Sorry to hear that Grady. I was thinking about trying a few sheep this winter. The lamb sales have been pretty consistant around $1.10/lbs. Better than feeder calves right now.

We are in for change, that is for sure, and it is happening a whole lot faster than I ever thought possible.

high corn means cheap feeders, especially at the lighter weights, but eventually will mean high meat prices.

If you don't have a source of cheap finishing feed, you won't be able to complete with those that do. So cow calf producers are going to see lighter wt feeder prices go down same story with lighter wt lambs is already happening. This means you either need to have an alternative way to take stock to heavier weights or exit. I can grow lambs to any weight cheaply without grain, but doing so with beef was a little more complicated for me on rented land (the cattle require longer term commitments than sheep), so the cows left last year.

Eventually the price of meat will have to rise to reflect costs...the price of any commodity will hover at the break even price of the average producer...the object is to be a below average cost operation and to stay behind the rise.

I think the only way one can be reasonably immune to the fuel and corn price escalation is to graze as much as possible. i.e. grazing does not require fossile fuels therefore does not compete head on with the price of oil.

Its been 4 years since I have purchased any kind of grain. Lambs are born on pasture raised on native grasses until 75 lbs then finnished on turnips to 90 lbs and sell on the ethnic slaughter market. As others have said thank goodness for that large growth in imigrants who are loyal lamb consumers.

yes costs are going up (hay costs more as does fert for turnips) but compared to purchased grain these are still cheaper which keeps my COP below the average.

btw, when prices catch up with corn prices, I'm predicting high end steaks will go for $25 a pound in the store.

Janet

Farming has to be diversified in the ways one generates income. There is little to be learned from any convention approach by modern agriculture, because it is all highly energy dependent (fossil fuel based products) and production oriented which puts cost out of control and production as the only multiplier for a revenue stream model.

Specialty crops are the best option for small producers, particularly ones that allow the farmer to sell directly to the consumer and keep the highest value for the goods.

But I couldn't enter this discussion without mention of the woodlot and the forested areas of the surrounding community. Sustainable management of the forest is a part of farming. The separation of forestry and farming is for the convenience of the status quo and not in the best interest of all rural residents including those that create their income from the work they do in the country side as "farmers".

Having been raised as a farmer in the time when tobacco was king and the primary income producer I have experienced lots of attempts to generate income on the farm from other products. Food in a conventional sense is a "lost leader" item in the socio economic picture throughout this country. There seems to be a plan to keep food cheap so folks will spend a smaller portion of their income on basic life needs (food) so they will have more "disposable" income to buy "consumer" goods, or stuff the really don't need to survive. So to avoid being a member of the lost leader segment of our society we chose to switch from food to fiber as our primary income generation. By fiber of course I mean wood products.

There are many advantages of fiber over food. First the shelf life is longer and the window of marketability is greater. Second, you get paid for what you produce weekly... when selling logs into the commodity market. Forest products also allow all sorts of value adding opportunities that increase the percentage of value that the producer keeps.

The use of the "farm animals" as a farm crop that actually works in the forest is a complex situation for conventional agriculture folks to grasp, but that is what we have done. It works - logging with animals is farming. Forest and woodlots are part of the farm, in fact in our area there is more forest than farmland and most of the east is that way.

So consider expanding the farm to being a forest management base and add this to your income production. It is particularly appropriate now as the ownership forestland becomes a matter of more people and smaller pieces of woodland. These new smaller forestland owners care about the appearance of their woods, so the access to conduct income generating management that is restorative and therefore sustainable is greater than ever in history. The new forest landowners are greatly concerned about the natural appearance of their forest and animal power provides the best way of accomplishing this sensitive method.

So there is our .25 cents a board foot worth of farm
income pondering.

Visit our web site ( http://healingharvestforestfoundation.org )

and read more about how we do this work of restorative forestry.

Also be sure to watch RFD-TV the Rural Heritage show starting on the 15th of September to see the first in a series of episodes that will show you what we do in the woods with farm animals.

We certainly are not getting rich logging with horses, but we are making a living on the farm and that is getting harder everyday as this original post reflects accurately.

We look forward to hearing the response from the series on RFD.

Jason Rutledge
Biological Woodsman

It is unfortunate, but it seems that about any small farm that stays afloat these days is going to have to have one key ingredient;

A day job to support it.

Janet is right-the staples of meat, poultry and dairy are going to be very high in the retail outlets.

The years I raised hogs for a living, I found that cheap corn lead to cheap hogs and the opposite was also true. Best money I made was with (comparitively) high corn-$3/bushel and up. Don't know if there's a limit to that rule. Maybe $7 corn won't work that way.

I have also noticed that once prices go up in the store ("wheat price is high, beef is high", etc) the price doesn't ever really drop even if the wheat price drops or beef drops.

I know it's true that what goes up must also come down. Can't believe some of the cash rents being paid around here. Bad weather or a drop in prices is going to be tough. And I don't know how sorry I'll be able to feel for the renter who can't pay the rent or the landlord who charged the high price.

Good points all! Janet - what type of turnips are you using? Getting away from grain would save me a fortune. Have thought about planting a small field of corn, but the deer around here would wreck havoc I'm sure. As I said, I am really thinking of selling off the cows and a few horses and looking at sheep to replace them on the pasture. That would allow me enough area to fence off a hay field and use rotational grazing on the rest. My pasture is pretty overgrazed right now, as dry as we are. So a rest is probably in order too.
I do keep goats for my dairy needs and the chickens have produced a little steady money flow from eggs. I raised a couple hogs this year so the freezer is full. The garden is providing plenty of canned veggies right now. I'm trying to heat with wood - have a small woodlot on the place. Just trying to keep the bills down.

I've only tried one variety so far, barenburg's Barkant, a type of purple top. I have not tried another yet, as in if its not broke don't fix it :-)

I get 10-15 lbs gain per lamb per month while on turnips, those gains won't impress people who are accustomed to feeding corn, but when you figure the cost per pound of gain, the turnips are about 1/2 the cost.

But the best part is that there is no setback going from pasture to turnips like there is going from pasture to feedlot. I figure I loose about 3 weeks of gain while lambs adjust to eating dry feed if we go to the feedlot, but they don't skip a beat when we go to the turnips.

With sheep think beyond your own boundaries, they are so easily moved you can purchase grazing (or graze free) anywhere there is un utilized feed. I've have a growing amount of grazing free for fire control or just simply 'mowing' especially with the price of gas making people think twice about starting up a tractor.

Janet

Jason,

We have about 20 acres of wild woods on our farm that we have toyed with doing some forestry on. It is primarily popple right now and appears to be reaching its longevity.

I once visited a person who planted little groves of high value trees throughout their farm, like a dozen walnut here, a dozen cherry there and so on. The idea appealed to me in the sense that it was both recreational and had value someday, but I wondered, is there a minimal amount of a particular variety we would want to plant? I suppose we are going to be pretty limited here in N. Minn as we are in the pine forest, but I'd like to give it a try.

Janet

A small farm should easily be able to pay and/or supply basic necesities like food, housing, and clothes. Selling a dozen eggs/day will buy the clothes you need and leave alot left over.
However, if you are living on credit (mortgage, car loans, etc.) you will become one of the casualties of this new economy, the rich and the poor.
Farm management is not hard. If you can't afford to buy feed for your stock you simply; grow your own, sell off the stock, or find feed alternatives.
It isn't usually hard to know what to do but it's usually always hard to do the right thing.
It's okay to lower your aspirations!
Keep on keeping on-

I went to the ag marketing service website and they show 400-500 lb steers in Va selling for $.95 to $1.15. here in the midwest they are bringing $1.10 - $1.28 these are excellent prices, so I'm not sure how it is hard to not make money on calves this year. I am fully expecting that market to come down, as has already happened to lambs, but anything close to $1 should be a profitable price for a calf.

I could not get the link to post well here, but try googling 'cities reporting livestock' or USDA Ag Marketing Service.

Janet

Sue Staley wrote: "Is anyone making money out there?"

I know of no greater way to diminish cash losses on a farm, than to restrict expenses, or off-farm inputs.

There's a reason why some folks .. the Amish come to mind, for example .. have been more successful as a farming community than has any other farming subset. Their practices are not reliant upon off-farm inputs to such an extent that they have the extraordinary risk of cost-price squeeze that has crushed so many other farmers and driven them out of the farm life. Beyond that, possibly they don't give a hoot about how many pairs of Nikes are in any given household. :-)

If you rely upon purchase-on-demand feed for any livestock, unless you have some kind of growers' contract with a big corporate outfit that guarantees you a tenth of a cent per finished pound of meat, or whatever, more often than not you will be lucky to break even, and the risk of loss is very high. One terrible year .. and they come along with astonishing regularity .. and the fantasy of idyllic farm life is shot to pieces, IF you are measuring your successes in dollars and cents.

It's much easier to be broke all the time if you don't need money for anything, except maybe land taxes. But as long as you can hold onto some land to use .. always a big challenge, especially where debt is involved .. (stay out of it) .. there are some things I think are key, based on having found out in the usual way for me, that is to say, the hard way.

FIRST .. before you get the animals, get the feed, whether pasture, hay or other forage, or grain. Grow it or secure it by some other means that is ironclad. Fill up your grain bins, hay lofts, silos .. whatever ..

THEN .. decide how many horses, cattle, chickens, pigs, sheep, goats, alpacas etc. you can afford to feed based upon your secured supply until the next time you are apt to have a crop come in can be expected to roll around.

Otherwise, the "free market" with no safety net will likely eat you alive, as we are seeing happen to so many folks now.

Reduce consumption of fossil fuels required to the lowest possible amount. Here it is well to be extreme, in my opinion. Not that animal power is extreme .. but you can grow hay and oats, fuel for the donkeys, horses, oxen and mules, year in and year out. If cash flow is slim to none, the same can't be said about fuel for your jetski and snowmobile, tractors and trucks.

Avoid equipment that you can't maintain and repair yourself.

Practice biodynamic management of your land .. reduce or eliminate the need for chemicals that have to be purchased, and can make your land act retarded anyway.

Don't promise to pay anyone a monthly payment on anything, unless you have an annuity or some rich uncle to pay it when you can't. The light bill is enough of that, already.

If you can do it, get rid of your light bill. Conserve, at least.

Instead of overproducing one commodity or product in order to create a surplus far beyond your own needs, maybe think about how to produce as much of your own stuff for your own needs as you can, and then, when you have a surplus, sell it or barter with it.

Be diversified. No one thing is likely to be highly profitable 100% of the time. But many things do well occaisionally. If you throw enough at the wall, some of it will stick.

Last .. and i'm not a religious person, or a preachy type .. FAR FROM IT .. but I do believe this, and it seems to work for me .. when you are struggling, and everything seems totally hopeless .. that's the time to find somebody else who maybe needs a helping hand even more than you, and give it to them, without expecting a doggone thing in return. That's where the best "dividends" are in farming sometimes, and hell .. we ought to take full advantage of it!:-)

I love the turnip idea!

There're lots of good ideas kicking around in here.

Cheers,

Thomas

Thomas
You offer a lot of encouragement to a lot of us that are looking for a way to make it on our small farms.I feel better reading what you have to say.I am or feel like i am stuck in this dead end job and maybe don't have the guts to try and make it on the farm.As i am getting older and have some health problems i cant come up with a idea on how to pay health insurance and property taxes here in Indiana.But if not for that i am sure i could make a go of it.Rob

The price of calves seems to still be running about the same as last year. Hay is 50 to 100% higher and frieght is also higher. Fencing is also about doubled.
Makes it tough to make cows work.

Hey all! Thomas -thanks for the great advice! Yes - the mortgage is the elephant in the room. If I could get it knocked out- the picture would be much rosier.
Janet and Dale - The feeder calf market was looking ok for awhile but we've tipped into another semi- drought again this year. No second cutting unless we get a lot of rain in a hurry. Went to Caldwell West Virginia last week( closest one to me). 300-400 were only bringing .50-.76. Could time to buy. Sorry time to sell. I didn't sell mine at that price. Will try Harrisonburg next time even though it is about twice as far from me.

The mortgage should always be at least "the elephant in the room". Just because the land or the tractor or the horses are paid off doens't mean that you can honestly disregard their cost when considering whether or not you're turning a profit. It certainly eases the cash flow but in terms of getting a return on all the assets which your enterprise is employing you must still consider assets owned outright just like you should put a cost to your time.

Good Luck

looking at the ag marketing service website

I do see hay prices are very high in some areas of the country. I was just out in california and when I heard people were paying $14 per bale for hay I thought perhaps they were just buying over priced ultra retail end hay at the feedstore, but as it turns out even bulk hay in S. Calif is extreemly high. Not that one has to pay _that_ much for it as there is hay quoted at much lower prices as well. One of the keys when faced with drought and high prices is to buy in bulk, buy in season, and learn how to stretch your supplies. I know some folks actually transport their cattle out of state onto leases where pasture is affordable.

I agree if one is faced with no other choice but to pay extra ordinary prices for hay, then really there is no choice about staying in business. You have to sell back to what ever number allows you to feed a very minimal amount of hay (for that matter most small livestock operations are overstocked).

The extension folks in SE USA have been working on some 'no hay' rations for cattle using all by product feeds. Not sure I'd ever want to go that route (they did mention you need really good fences), but it might be worth looking into for some folks.

but bottom line is, grazing is nearly always the cheapest, and any time you can get a fence around it, you are saving money.

Janet

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is what kind of a winter you will get. I raise enough grass to feed my cows the year around. The problem comes if the grass gets snowed under before calving time, mid feb. I can sort off what ever needs help and just feed maybe 10-20% of the bunch up til then. But if I get a big snow and then it crusts over, I have to feed to spring. This has happened in early novenber. So I need to see 3 tons of hay in the stack. Most years I will have 1/2 left over but this year I have only 40% of what I need left over. Will have to trim down the numbers to pay for what I need. These will be marginal cows but they used to pay their way until hay went to over $200 and straw to $110.
Haven't used over 50 gal of gas in the tractors all year so far but need to haul in some fill around tanks. Just couldn't justify the cost of using my tractors doing anything. You can't spend $100 and only get back $20 in return.

What do you folks do about health insurance and land taxes,what about property insurance?I am pretty much new to the idea of trying to survive on the farm.I do have my place paid for and i grow my own hay but pay to have it roll bailed.There is so much more to pay out even after the mortage is paid.Rob

Property taxes don't amount to much as we are taxed on what the ground will produce instead of what someone will pay for a homesite. Insurance is why the wife works some at a burger joint. Health insurance is a 12gauge in the closet. Medicare don't cover things good enough.

RAIN!!!!! Finally got two good days off the tail end of the hurricane. No puddles- went straight into the ground. Yeah!

There are noneconomic considerations. For example, I had a young fellow help me butcher chickens this summer (well, young is relative-he and his wife are having their Silver Wedding party tomorrow and I'm invited. Free food.) He is an appliance repairman. I gave them a bunch of processed chickens for the help. Wasn't 'economical' to do this. But he stopped by and fixed my sink yesterday when I was gone. I don't do plumbing very well.

Helped a young fellow butcher his brother's chickens. They picked some sweet corn when they left.

Will help me castrate a Holstein bull calf I missed last spring. Won't be an easy project.

Another young fellow and his brothers keep Holstein heifers in my barn. He's taking his youngest kid off to college this weekend and I'm doing chores here for him.

No hesitation on my part.

In summary, sometimes a poor economic decision will reap very nice rewards in the end. And if they don't it's o.k. We poor folk have to stick together.