As some of you may have read my past posts, my 6 yr. old Haflinger mare lost a colt in April...limped on right front foot for several weeks, but no heat or sign of founder (at the time)- also, no limping for the past 6-8 weeks. The farrier came out on Friday and saw where a small part of the front of hoof had separated and told me that she had foundered, but not real bad. Can this horse be worked again or is she now just yard art?? He suggested a new type of show called "Ground Control"...it's rubber type material. We only use her for occasional wagon rides...I need opinions! Thanks for info!

Horses can come back from founder. Just be careful of her feed (less grain, more hay, limit grazing on lush pasture), and keep on top of her trimming schedule. Avoid long toes. Don't trot her for long periods on hard ground or pavement. It will take a year for normal hoof growth to make its way from the coronary band to the ground. She can be worked in the mean time, just be reasonable about it.

If all there is to use is a foundered horse, you use it. As long as they are willing to move, you use them. Just don't force them to move because you have reached their pain threshold.

Never heard of mats controlling founder. Its diet and everything here has it. I just trim hoofs back and try to keep the feed down below the point where limps take place and everyone manages. Winter, when hay is poor they are all looking/acting normal by spring.... only to do it again.

Mats might help on thrush. Might make them feel better.

Sharon: My suspicion is she can be used for way more than a yard ornament. Foal founder does occur and I suspect from what you have shared that is what has happened in this case. There are many animals that have suffered founder in some form or another and have gone on to be functional and useful in harness or under saddle. I would encourage you to monitor her soundness, provide good and fequent hoof care and use her as you see fit.

Sharon, I don't know better than your farrier, but I did once buy a sort of throwaway horse that had hoof wall separation in all four. It grew out just fine with regular hoof care, He was a flat footed old soul that always appreciated pads, but he never exhibited any signs of founder.

I didn't have real good results with the ground control shoes. They worked great for maybe one shoeing, but the rear nails really split the hoof walls out the second time around. The biggest problem with them is the foot kind of has to fit the shoe - otherwise the nail holes won't line up with the white line. The horse has to have real strong walls that are just the right shape. If you try them, get the clear ones. Let me know what size you need, I have a couple pair here I'd give you if the fit (about size 1 I think.)

Barb

If in fact the damage is slight, then it very well may repair itself. There is a possibility the separation has nothing to do with the founder, in which case it would naturally repair itself with time and care.

If I remember right, separation from founder becomes a major issue only if the underlying laminae is extensively damaged. Doesn't sound like that's the case with your mare especially since there's been no lameness in the last 2 months.

Since you only use her lightly there shouldn't be any reason not to continue.

You don't need opinions. You need to rely on people who have seen your situation and whom you trust. If your farrier is such a person, then follow his recommendations rather than those of people who are trying to assess your situation from afar.

My farrier had a mare founder at foaling and he describes a plastic shoe that he got and that it made a tremendous difference for her, so he is now doing light riding.

Janet

I also had a lg pony mare that foundered (after eating some minerals the feed mill had mixed up), she was quite ill, and one of the hooves abcessed, she pulled through it and was quite ridable later on without any special shoes.

janet

Sharon-my husband's gelding grass-foundered a few years ago. Our farrier put pads on him that we custom cut to fit. They go between the hooves and shoes, and in the center of the shoe they are thicker and make the whole bottom surface the same plane. We also use a 2-part hoof packing (made by VetTech) underneath the pads. The objective of this is to have the sole area bear most of the weight and allow the hoof wall and laminae to re-attach, and correct the rotation of the coffin bone. We had him x-rayed to determine the degree of coffin bone rotation and then re-checked it again later to determine our success. He is 19 and was returned to riding soundness, also had his diet re-worked to lessen his susceptibility to re-founder. The pads are a little pricey, about $115 for a set of 2, but it was worth it to us-they last at least 2 years. If Uncle Joe would act as go-between, I'll send you my phone#, address, and would mail you an old worn set of the pads so you will understand what I am talking about. Will also get addresses or a set of new pads for you to use if you choose. I am using the Ground Control shoes on my 6 yr old QH mare. I use her mostly for trail riding and ride in the Black Hills of SD, lots of rocky terrain. I am not using them for corrective purposes,just using them for protection and good footing-am very satisfied so far. I am not sure they would work as effectively as the pads and packing I described, but would be happy to visit with you about any or all of this. The Ground Control company and people are great to do business with.
UNCLE JOE-Please do not publish my address and phone, but would you or could you send it to Sharon? My email filter is set to exclusive and will not accept her email unless I have her in my contacts. Thanks Rural Heritage.
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I have seen foundered horses or ponies used again.They usually need extra care with the foundered feet and really have to watch there diets.Some need constant shoeing but depends on the situation I guess.Your farrier should know how to handle the situation since he is the one who works with it.

Well, first and foremost, the farrier, BY LAW, cannot diagnose a horse....PERIOD....(Unless he is also a vet)...I know this, because I AM a farrier. The only way to truly diagnose founder is via x-ray (unless P3 punches through the bottom of the foot...that's a no-brainer !). Hoof wall separation does not equal founder. You should get the horse to a vet, and get x-rays, and get the VET to diagnose and Rx the horse.

Steve

Thank you to everyone's response! Steve, I realize that the only person that can diagnose founder is the vet with xrays...the vet was used in the beginning (within the 1st 3 weeks), but no sign of founder. His diagnosis for the limping, was pulled muscles from the difficult birth, plus some infection from the retained placenta, which was expelled the 2nd day. Our farrier has been wonderful...he's always been thorough, knowledgable, gentle, and gives his opinion when asked. That's what this was...his opinion, but sometimes an educated opinion is worth more than a vet's diagnosis. In fact, a certified vet's diagnosis caused this trouble to begin with. She was palpated at 5 months and the vet said that she WASN'T pregnant...he checked her again at 9 1/2 months and still said she wasn't carrying a colt. On April 10th (she was due April 15th) she delivered a beautiful mule colt...no milk, no colostrum. He died 2 days later. BTW, the same vet examined her the day of birth and assured me she had PLENTY of milk - she NEVER had a drop. I guess I've said all of this to say that I appreciate other folk's knowledge of things that I'm not that sure of...that includes farmers, teamsters, trainers, farriers, horse folk, mule folk, anyone that has a valid, experienced or sensible, opinion. That's just one reason this forum and it's Porch folk are so wonderful to have around!! Thanks again to all!

Sharon: I understand completely about getting opinions. We all know vets can be wrong...as all of can be. Having said that, even the most incompetent vet, as long as he/she can take a decent x-ray, can't MISS a founder there. Based on what you have described so far, I would not be surprised that horse foundered. Retained placenta is a biggie !

The reason I stress x-rays, is because it is VITAL to how the farrier addresses the founder. Anytime a horse founders, 2 things need to be done. #1, the trigger of the founder NEEDS to be determined and resolved. #2, the farrier MUST be able to provide proper P3 support for the horse. In order to provide that support, the farrier needs to see the x-rays. If the founder trigger is not found, then no matter WHAT the farrier does, the horse is doomed.

Good luck !

Steve

About the time someone says I CANNOT legally give advice, thats when I do it in their face. Its called free speech, an American thing. Yea, the last of us real Americans.... us rednecks who don't buy into the bs.
Had enough of this with giving legal advice and vets and drs and what else is there? The funny thing is it never is the doctor or vet or attorney saying this.

ZR

There is NO law anywhere that prevents a farrier or anyone else from making a diagnosis. A diagnosis is nothing but an opinion and anyone can state an opinion whether the subject is animal or human.

Carl, you are giving wrong and dangerous information. A real quick search (about seven seconds) found this. I can offer more but it is late and the race is on TV.

Oregon Revised Statutes:

686.030 Acts constituting the practice of veterinary medicine. A person practices veterinary medicine, surgery or dentistry when the person does any of the following in this state:

(1) Diagnoses treats or prognosticates an animal medical problem.
(2) Prescribes or administers a drug medicine or treatment for the prevention, cure, amelioration, correction or modification of an animal problem or for euthanasia...
(4) Performs a surgical or dental opereation or procedure upon an animal....
(6) Gives an instruction or demonstration regarding the acts described in this section, except as an agent or employee of this state or of the Federal Goverenment.....

686.010 Definitions

(1) "Animal medical problem" means any wound, injury disease, discomfort, abnormality, deformity or defect of an animal.......

Carl, note the first (1). If you are not a vet and choose to diagnose an animal owned by a wealthy client and screw it up, you WILL stand in front of a judge!

Zebu can argue "free speech" to the judge all he wants. Even while getting his new free orange suit.

I offer this advise to anyone asked about an ill horse. Unless you want to risk the chance to get tangled up in the legal system the correct answer is ALWAYS "Call a vet".

This ain't your daddy's legal system. Like it or not.

Sharon. Find a vet you can trust. If you think the horse is worth the money then get the x-rays. If not take the farriers advise and wait to see what happens. But you still sound like you need a different vet.

OK, Muley, so Oregon has an act on the books that won't hold water. How many diagnosis police do you have running around looking for dangerous people like me?

There are enough stupid all over encompassing laws in this country such that the average person probably commits a felony each day and a number of misdemeanors and even if they don't a smart person can twist the law a little bit more to fit everyone and anyone in. Our bureaucrat lawmakers are brainless and bought and paid for.

The liberties given to the criminal system are such that they can literally make up their own charges if some unsuspecting fool offends their sense of right and wrong.

The judicial system is broke. I told this to the judge last time they tried to draft me for jury duty. Your right, a judge might throw one in jail, look what one did to poor Marthe Stewart.

However a jury made up of real Americans who believe in freedom would not. Most people can still smell bs thou this IS disappearing. THIS is why people like me don't yet fear the bs the law says or try to instill fear into others or worse yet try to make the last real red neck stand up for what is right Americans
into follow the law puppets. When the American people fall into your saying Muley than truly our freedom will be gone. May it wait till after I am dead and gone.

ZR

Carl, the correct answer to your question is every damn lawyer that thinks you might have a dime.

Carl, you are dead wrong.

Texas:

"The Veterinary Licensing Act defines the practice of veterinary medicine as the diagnosis, treatment, correction, change, manipulation, relief or prevention of animal disease, deformity, defect, injury, or other physical condition, including the prescription or administration of a drug, biologic, anesthetic, apparatus, or other therapeutic or diagnostic substance or technique; representation of an ability and willingness to perform the acts listed above; or use titles, words, or letters to induce the belief that a person is legally authorized and qualified to perform an act listed above; or the receipt of compensation for performing an act listed above."

Practicing veterinary medicine without a license is against the law in all 50 states, and it is a felony. Now, in some states, one can do ANYTHING they want to their own horses, but NOT to paying clientèle. I PERSONALLY know of 2 farriers in Texas who lost alot of $$$$ because of prosecution.

Steve

It's too bad that Muley in Oregon and Steve Wisnieski in Texas lack the ability to understand what they read. This thread was started by Sharon wanting advise about her horse. It was NOT about setting up shop and pretending to be a vet. I'll stick by my guns: There is NO law anywhere that prevents anyone from giving an opinion (diagnosis, if you will) on the condition of someone's horse, mule, or other animal. I am NOT talking about hanging out a shingle and claiming to be a vet or other expert. Licensing laws are different from someone offering an opinion. I defy anyone to name me one person who was ever sent to prison for merely offering an opinion on the condition of an animal. If those two people can't understand the difference, then they need to go back to school and retake the 4th grade.

My earlier advice to Sharon of Awesome Ass Acres still stands: Rely on people you trust who know the condition of your horse and not on people who don't.

Thank you for your words of wisdom...that's what I call the "personal use" information that others have that I don't! Carl, you're absolutely correct saying that I was asking for advice, suggestions...and not asking for a vet's diagnosis over the internet...THANK YOU and others for clearing that up and for taking the time to respond with your experience. She's still doing great...NO limping, no outward signs of pain or discomfort. I'm going to take each day and see what comes. Very sincerely --THANKS AGAIN!!